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| Table Saws for the Fiscally Challenged? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3901 |
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| Author: | Michael McBroom [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:40 am ] |
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My old cheapo table-top 10" Skil table saw is falling apart. It has always been barely adequate: noisy, vibrates a lot, underpowered, and the fence is not very accurate. After getting into guitar building I frankly have been unwilling to trust it for anything. But things are getting busy around here now, and I could use a good table saw for cutting fret slots, neck scarfs, and the like. Mostly for cutting fret slots, tough, so blade runout -- or the lack thereof -- is critical. I don't have much to spend right now, and I don't have much room either for the forseeable future, so I have to keep these items in mind. My happy price point would be around $400 or under, although I could stretch it a bit higher if I absolutely had to. So far, of the saws I've looked at that fall within this general price range, it appears that the Delta 36-675 might be the best fit for my needs. I've read through its reviews at Amazon.com and almost everybody there loves it. But I thought I'd go ahead and toss this question out to the groupmind here, and see what you guys might have to say. So, whaddya say? Care to share? Best, Michael |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:53 am ] |
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You can't beat the price and quality of Grizzly's saws. John Osthoff has a cabinet saw from them that is very nice, at a price WAY under that of a similar Delta or Powermatic. Buy through the OLF Tool Shed and support the OLF! |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:21 am ] |
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Man... I so hear you.... A table saw is the big missing element from my shop. I have NOT bought a saw on several occassions because I couldn't swing "the best". This just seems like a tool that is at the center of your shop and you shouldn't skimp on it. I am looking at the powermatic... but I keep hearing good things about the grizzly at half the cost.... But somehow I just can't imagine that you can get Waverly's at Grover prices.... (to borrow from another thread....) 
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| Author: | BlueSpirit [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:17 am ] |
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Brock I went the cheaper way when I bought my saw and got the Home Depot brand, Rigid. It is an ok saw and it does most of what I require from it. But when it comes down to it, it lacks in exactness. The fence is aluminum, not metal, and the guide/feeder is way less than accurate. If I had it to do over, I would go with the more expensive. Check out the Mini_max stuff. Very expensive, but probably worth it. I know their bandsaws are worth every penny. |
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| Author: | johno [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:47 am ] |
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I do have a grizzly left tilt cabinet saw. I have absolutely no complaints with it. I did think about the powermatic too, but it was twice the cost. Maybe if I was doing a cabinet shop business and my saw was running all day long, the powermatic may show its superiority overthe grizzly, but I don't run my saw all day long. I expect my saw to hold up and run smoothly for many years. It is really accurate, the run-out on the spindle is minimal, the fence is good. I bought an incra miter attachment and dedicated the one that came with the grizzly to my fretslot "system." I also added delta tenon jig and use that quite a bit too. All that said, the Grizzly is not "cheap" or inexpensive. I did use a contractors saw for a while, but it would be hard to go back after having a cabinet saw. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:57 am ] |
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Here in Europe it's hard to find a good table saw of the right size. There are lots of really heavy saws with huge sliding tables and so on on one side and light construction size saws on the other, not that much in between. I managed to find a good, second hand cast iron Wadkin 10" cabinet saw, 3 Hp which was exactly what I was looking for through an online dealer. Don't you have places like this where you are? |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:43 am ] |
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I guess this reply would be more for Brock's benefit--but I second all that JohnO said. I recently purchased the exact saw he did, and I can't say enough good things about the Grizzly. That was money well spent. As for cutting frets on a table saw, I worried over my old contractor saw too--with light construction and wobbly bearings to boot. But as small as the blade is, and as fine a cut (crosscut) that you take, it did fine. Haven't cut any fret slots with the new saw yet, but am looking forward to it. By the way--JohnO, do you have a picture of your fret cutting system? I'm still pondering how to attach my fence to the sliding miter jig. (It is a little unusual.) Steve |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:58 am ] |
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Ryobi BT3100... $300 at Home Depot and there's a $50 rebate until the end of the year. I love mine. It comes with a sliding miter table that I use all the time. When I was researching them before I bought mine, I kept seeing the comment that it was the best table saw you could buy for under $1000... That's probably stretching it, but it really is a great saw. It comes with a Ryobi-rebranded Diablo blade. It even has it's own "fan" site with an active forum, BT3-Central. There are lots of cool jig designs that people have come up with specifically for this saw. It doesn't come with miter slots, but you can buy an add on kit for $100 that comes with a miter slot table section, casters, etc... Don't confuse it with their cheaper portable saws, this is the one marked "precision woodcutting system" or some such thing. (Rereading this, I should add that I'm not employed by Ryobi :) ) |
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| Author: | Eric Poulsen [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:19 am ] |
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I've been using a Bosch 10" saw for a while now and I'm quite happy with it. A nice addition to it recently has been a smaller diameter thin kerf blade. The brand is Matshita or something like that. Less waste, less sawbust, less stress on the saw. I've never cut fret slots with it but I think it would do fine. For guitar building I don't think you need a full size cabinet saw. I've also moved my shop 3 times in the last few years and was glad everytime I did'nt own a Unisaw. |
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| Author: | Anthony Z [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:52 am ] |
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Michael, have you thought of looking for a used table saw? Years ago I picked up a Rockwell/Beaver 8" saw for CDN$100. It isn't fancy but sure does what I need it to do. |
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| Author: | Brian Hawkins [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:08 pm ] |
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Well, I got this Ryobi ($150...I think) and built this fret slotting jig (so far I am very pleased with it) and dedicated it to fret slotting alone. Between it, a small routing table and my Radius jig from Craig at CTLuthiery I can slot, radius, sand and taper two or three fret boards in about 1 to 1 1/2 hours. If you have the room it just seems easier to have tools that are dedicated to one job (if possible or reasonable) as there is less set up time and less wear and tear on one router, saw ect. 
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| Author: | old man [ Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:19 pm ] |
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I'm using a Jet 10". I'm very happy with it. I've used it for 4 years building furniture and misc. things. I'm still on my first guitar but cut the neck tenon and scarf joint with it and it did very well. Ron |
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| Author: | johno [ Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:23 am ] |
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Steve, I don't have a pix handy of the fret slot thing, but it is really nothing fancy. I just used a nice straight stable piece of baltic birch and bolted it to the miter gauge. (There were 2 holes in the top of the miter gauge, so I added a piece to mount it.) Other than that I just have the 1/16" dowel pin to get "index" the slots in the steel templates. A little carpet tape and 21 passes later your done. I could maybe jig it up more, but I have no complaints with this system. Hope that helps |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Nov 27, 2005 12:35 am ] |
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I'm not as great user of the table saw, just use it for scarfs, fingerboard tapering, tenons, that kind of thing. Three or four years ago I bought a cheap SIP 10" table saw, Which after careful setting up and adjustment has never let me down. A number of the UK suppliers sell identical rebadged saws usually for about ?125, for the hobby and light user it works just fine (especially with my new Diablo blade!). I think it's the same as any tool, don't expect it to work perfectly straight out of the box, time spent on set-up is never wasted. Colin |
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| Author: | old man [ Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:21 am ] |
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I also tapered my FB with my table saw. I agree with Colin. Many saws will work fine if you get everything aligned and set up well. Ron |
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| Author: | csullivan [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 5:42 am ] |
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I've owned a Delta Unisaw for about 2 years. It's a beautiful machine and is definitely overkill for guitar work, but I wouldn't give it up now for anything. Before that I had a plain old Sears Craftsman 10" for at least 25 years. It cut thousands of feet of wood, both hard and soft and I never had to replace anything on it. When I gave it away to my brother-in-law it was still running true as ever. The key with any table saw is to spend a couple of days adjusting everything square and parallel. The most critical is to get the blade dead parallel to the miter slots by mounting a dial indicator on the cross slide and adjusting the shaft trunions under the table. As long as there is no runout on the shaft, any table saw can be made to cut accurately and repeatably. It does, however, have to have a cast iron (steel) table -- not a stamped sheet metal one. Since we don't as a rule have to make heavy cuts in extremely dense woods, almost any horsepower will do. Craig |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:09 am ] |
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A decent contractor's saw (Jet, Delta) will do a good job of cutting fret slots and making most of the other cuts needed for guitar work. I'm not crazy about my Jet, but it does the job, and I haven't been able to justify a good cabinet saw for 2-3 times the price. You do have to take the time to set it up, but you should do that for any saw. The Ryobi is a bit of an oddball. I haven't used one, but many people like them. The sliding table is unusual. Ryobi tools tend to be a bit lightweight, but I would imagine that with good setup (and regular checking of the setup) this could be a very good machine for a guitar shop. |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:38 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]The Ryobi is a bit of an oddball. I haven't used one, but many people like them. The sliding table is unusual. Ryobi tools tend to be a bit lightweight, but I would imagine that with good setup (and regular checking of the setup) this could be a very good machine for a guitar shop.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't want the Ryobi if I were tossing it in a truck and taking it to jobsites, or for a full time furniture/cabinet shop. It's lightweight, but it's well engineered and doesn't feel like a cheap tool. It came set up almost dead-on out of the box, I tweaked it just a tiny bit here and there. It holds it's adjustment well, and comes with a decent fence. I've probably used it with the sliding miter table more often than without. I think it's just about perfect for a hobbyist guitar builder. You just kind of have to forget for awhile that it's a Ryobi :) |
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| Author: | Daryl [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:28 pm ] |
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I've had a Ryobi scince they first came out. It is not a framing saw, it is a cabinet makers saw. While it is high maintenace, it is a precision piece of equipment. I've made many Jigs (for guitars) that easily attach to the sliding table. for example a rossette tile cutter. It is the kind of saw you either love or love to hate. I wouldn't part with mine, but again, I dont cut fence post's or frame houses. I do note that the quality of the new Ryobi does not appear to be as good as when they were first came out. Daryl www.cgblues.homestead.com |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:45 pm ] |
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Daryl, I'd love to see some pics of the guitar specific jigs you've made for the sliding miter table on your Ryobi, maybe you could start a new thread with that if you have time and wouldn't mind. |
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| Author: | TimDet [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:51 pm ] |
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I have the Ryobi bt3100 for 2 weeks so far I like it.Unlike Leteatpaste Mine was really out of alignment like any tool out of the box, so the trick is to spend as much time as needed to set it up.For the price it has much versatility.Feels very stable and well built.1 note hook it up to a dust collector( it has a port) as you have rooster tails of saw dust shooting from the back (I mean 10 foot throw).The sliding miter table is usually found on much more expensive tables. good luck, Tim |
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| Author: | Steve Kinnaird [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:52 pm ] |
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JohnO--Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm thinking of doing. It's the location of the holes in that miter gauge that I think is a bit odd. I might drill straight through and pass some 1/4" bolts from the rear into my guide fence. I was just wondering if you had done the homework assignment and I could simply cheat off your paper.
Thanks, Steve |
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| Author: | EricKeller [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:58 pm ] |
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I can vouch for the Ryobi. I have used a Unisaw -- acutally a custom combination of two unisaws and some extra cast iron tables that was outstanding. However, the Ryobi did everything I ever asked of it. I had an opportunity last spring to buy a batch of equipment and sold the Ryobi with the assumption that I would replace it with a Grizz. Can't see spending the extra money for top of the line, but it does conflict with my theory of always buying the best tool. A lot of people seem to like the Craftsman "zip code" saw that comes with the Besemeyer fence. It's very similar to what Delta calls a Hybrid. It looks really nice, but the fence is a little out of place on the saw. That fence is really impressive though. I think that saw costs almost what the grizz costs. |
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| Author: | burbank [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:19 am ] |
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I bought Craftsman's 10" hybrid, one step down from the one Eric mentioned. It doesn't have the Besemeyer fence, but a proprietary one that's sturdy and accurate. It was about 650. I'd looked at Grizzly and Delta in the same price range but settled on the Cman after adding up shipping for the Grizz. The motor is inside the cabinet, it has a dust port, cast iron table and wings. Fit, finish and details are top notch. When it showed up, I checked setup with a dial indicator and square - it needed no adjustments. I only wish the miter stuff was a bit more substantial, though it works well. I'm a happy camper. Pat |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:57 am ] |
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Allow me to ask my 1st dumb question for the day... Grizzly offers saws that have a left or right tilt. What is the advantage of one over the other? |
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